Wednesday, 11 February 2015


   Kerry Thornley:  Master of Pranks and Lies 

Kerry Thornley

      "I'm not the only one to have exposed Kerry Thornley's lies about Lee Harvey Oswald and Thornley's activities in New Orleans." JVB
     With Kerry Thornley now neatly revered as the founder of a religion based on a spoof, a series of articles has appeared to "vindicate" Kerry Thornley as a truthful man whose testimony about the Kennedy assassination can be trusted. 
    A vision of "Thornley as truthteller" is now being invoked to discredit me as a witness, part of a project to do so that began in January, 2015 with some Facebook posts full of jeers, which then evolved to threats to sue me, to call the FBI, and even kill me.
    This is the first of a series of articles exposing, point by point, why Kerry Thornley is being raised to the status of a saintly truth-teller, and how the truth can set you free from any such belief.

    I saw Thornley twice in May, 1963 --once on May 8, and once on May 28.  (See Me & Lee: How I came to know, love and lose Lee Harvey Oswald, Trine Day, 2011, p. 256-257 and p. 318 ). 
     Using Thornley's lies to discredit me is creating havoc. By accepting Thornley's lies as "truth" they are then being used by "Lone Nutters" and Warren Commission defenders to discredit other truthful witnesses and honorable researchers who have rejected those same lies. 

    "Kerry Thornley: Master of Pranks and Lies" is the first of a series of articles written to correct the disinformation.
Example One:
     Let's begin with a few of Thornley's statements published in the late 1990's that these 'researchers' don't want you to read. They want you to believe Thornley, so that you will accept all of  Thornley's statements about his time spent in New Orleans in 1963.  That's when Thornley wants us to believe that he never met the man -- Lee Harvey Oswald-- who was also living there, about whom Thornley was writing his first book, The Idle Warriors.  Thornley says he never saw Lee Oswald in New Orleans in May and he never saw Lee Oswald in New Orleans in September, even though witnesses such as myself have stated otherwise.
     After reading a portion of this interview, below, ask yourself if this is a man you would trust to tell the truth concerning what he knew about Lee Harvey Oswald and the Kennedy assassination:

Kerry Thornley, interviewed by  "Working Class Hero Magazine": 

K.T.: It’s like fate, the conspiracy. There were Nazi breeding experiments which I think Oswald and myself may have been products of.
W.C.H.: Similar to the CIA mind control experiments?
K.T.: That was involved also, but it was a little more complicated than that. The North Koreans had some enormously sophisticated mind control technology. As it turns out members of North and South Korea’s government were part of the Japanese (column?). During the war, they were getting this technology from the Japanese, it was stuff the Germans developed unbeknownst to American Intelligence. I believe I was being mind controlled by them even before I went into the military. Then the CIA got a hold of me up until the Kennedy assassination.
W.C.H.: Controlled in what manner?
K.T.: Well, it’s spooky; very hard to believe.
W.C.H.: Like the Russian ESP experiments?
K.T.: Very strange. They could influence my choice of words, so that it would sound like I was speaking in intelligence code. Things that I didn’t realize even existed. And I think back on arguments I had with my parents, and I remember how “freaked out” they were at the time. It was like, all of a sudden one day I started speaking these double entendre sentences. Like a type of “cant” language.
W.C.H.: Like doublespeak?
K.T.: Yeah, exactly! Precisely! And my parents thought I was a “genius” (laughs) of some kind, to have figured all of this out by myself. Then later on they deduced I was being mind controlled. Also Dulles went nuts trying to figure out how the Koreans got a hold of such sophisticated techniques. Then when I got into the marines, I think Delgado at Yale planted something in my head at that point. I believe one of the purposes of the Kennedy assassination was to get those of us who had been torn out of the clutches of the Japanese by the CIA., back into the hands of the Japanese. (laughs) (emphasis by JVB)

    It can be argued that the Hero interview was conducted later in his life, by which time Th0rnley had gone mad, but that we can still trust his statements in the 1960's as utterly truthful and reliable, including everything Thornley told the Warren Commission, the Secret Service, Jim Garrison, etc.  So let's look at a few examples from this time period:

1965: Thornley helps write and publish Discordia Principia, a clever spoof-- also a kind of religion-- based on the true importance of chaos over order.  Reading just the selection below will give you the flavor of the whole text

5th edition introduction: by Kerry Thornley, Discordian Society Co-founder ( also known as "Lord Omar Khayyam Ravenhurst") wrote:
   "Every few thousand years some shepard inhales smoke from a burning bush and has a vision or eats moldy rye bread in a cave and sees God. From then on their followers kill one another at the slightest provocation. Haunted houses called temples are built by one side and torn down by another - and then bloody quarrels continue over the crumbling foundations.
      Organized religion preaches Order and Love but spawns Chaos and Fury.  
      Why? Because the whole Material Universe is exclusive property of the Greco-Roman Goddess of Chaos, Confusion, Strife, Helter-Skelter and Hodge- Podge. No Spiritual power is even strong enough to dent Her chariot fenders. No material force can resist the temptation of Her Fifth Intergalactic Bank of the Acropolis Slush Fund for Graft and Corruption.
      All this was revealed to me in an absolutely unforgettable miraculous event in 1958 or 1959 in a bowling alley in Friendly Hills or maybe Santa Fe Springs, California, witnessed by either Gregory Hill or Malaclypse the Younger or perhaps Mad Malik or Reverend Doctor Occupant or some guy who must have vaguely resembled one or another of them.
      With the help of a Chaosopher’s Stone I found the Goddess Eris Discordia in my pineal gland (on Cosmic Channel Number Five) and ever since I have known the answers to all the mysteries of metaphysics, metamystics, metamorhpics, metanoiacs and metaphorics. (Before that I didn’t even know how to install a plastic trash can liner so it wouldn’t fall down inside the first time somebody threw away garbage.) You, too can activate your pineal gland simply by reciting the entire contents of this book upon awakening each morning, rubbing sandalwood paste between your eyes each evening upon retiring, banging your forehead against the ground five times a day, refraining from harming cockroaches and meditating (defined as sitting around waiting for good luck). When your pineal gland finally lights up you will never again, as long as you live, have to relax."

JVB: "I find such writing a pleasant diversion. It doesn't reflect madness --it's more along the lines of genius.  But as support for Kerry as a truth-telling being, it falls flat on its face."

    It's a fact that the last thing Kerry Thornley wanted in 1963-1969 was to get  identified in the Kennedy assassination as a co-conspirator along with Lee Harvey Oswald.  However, by the mid-sixties his book The Idle Warriors, which was a hit piece on Lee Oswald as a former friend in the Marine, had sold 17,000 copies.  Thornley, who had lived in New Orleans both in April and September of 1963,when Lee Oswald had also lived there, would contend that he never met the man about whom he was writing.

     Here's an example of what Thornley told Garrison's Grand Jury in 1968, after a witness, Barbara Reid, insisted she had seen Thornley and Lee Oswald together in a bar in New Orleans in September, 1963. See if you can believe Thornley as he denies meeting Lee Oswald (however some "researchers" swallow what you are about to read as "truth"):  

Thornley, to Garrison's Grand Jury: "... I am saying Barbara is suggesting, she is saying, well maybe you didn't recognize him, he came walking in and of course there is always the other consideration that I was revising the book at that time and he could have come walking in, and she convinced me that this is what probably happened, he came walking in and sat next to me and we were talking to her and she made this comment on my voice and she went back to her conversation and I went back to mine . . . ."

So... Kerry says he was 'revising' his book about Lee Oswald at that time, Barbara said Lee came in and sat down next to Kerry, but somehow, Kerry didn't recognize him, even though Barbara Reid did. and somehow, "she convinced me that this is probably what happened...." 

The Grand Jury also got this:

Q. Did she see you with Oswald? 
A. I don't think she did because the next day I started asking people . . . . 

Which prompted this remark:
Q. You don't think so? 
A. I don't know whether it was Oswald, I can't remember who was sitting there with me, I don't think it was Oswald for two reasons, the first thing is if I could remember who it was then I could say definitely, in view of the fact that . . . . . 
Q. I understand those facts, but in view of the fact that you were writing a novel about him, I should think you would recognize him. 
A. Yes, this was Barbara's theory.... First of all, the next day I started saying to people Barbara is sure she saw me with Oswald in the Bourbon House. That is the first thing. I kept asking people.

(This sounds like a concerned man who started asking people after the assassination if they remembered seeing him with Lee Oswald.)

Q. Did you ask them if they saw you at the Bourbon House with Oswald?
A.  I said Barbara is sure she saw me at the Bourbon House with Oswald, I don't know whether that is true or not but she is sure she saw me there and she has convinced me that she saw me. 

Kerry Thornley Makes a Slip-up

   Oddly, Thornley also told the Grand Jury that he thought he might have seen Marina Oswald, Lee's wife, recently, as she was waiting for a bus. 

GARRISON: Have you ever met Marina? 
THORNLEY: Not that I know of,  I thought I saw her standing waiting for a bus when I got off here, but Moe said he was sure it wouldn't be her because she wouldn't be alone."

Did Thornley say this just in case "somebody" might have seen him interacting with Marina, at the bus stop?  Might she have recognized him?  After all, I'm not the only witness who has stated that Thornley and Marina Oswald knew each other.  
     His comment was made during the session after lunch when Thornley was questioned by Jim Garrison himself:

GARRISON: But you did not meet her in 1963? 
THORNLEY:  Not that I know of.    [This is the second time Thornley says "Not that I know of" which keeps the possibility open, in case another witness might speak up and disagree, later.] This is the thing. The French quarter is such a small place you see each other even though there are a lot of people and you pass somebody on the street and not recognize them, of course I would not have recognized her then because I would not have known who she was...

Thornley seems to realize that he said too much. Another example of Thornley's shadow-boxing has to do with yet another statement to Garrison's Grand Jury:

Q. Were you aware that Oswald was in New Orleans approximately a week before you left? 
A. No, in fact I was not aware of that until you say it now.  

     Thornley wants us to believe that he "was not aware of that" --the very dates when Lee Oswald was in New Orleans -- which was one of the most persistent questions that he was being asked by everybody, including the Grand Jury.
 After all, Thornley was asked if he was aware that Lee was in New Orleans at the same time Thornley was by the Warren Commission itself, way back in May, 1964: 

Mr. JENNER. It follows, I take it, that you were never aware that he was in New Orleans when you were there? 
Mr. THORNLEY. No; I wasn't. 

   Therefore, we can see that he is lying to Garrison. Nevertheless, some "researchers" find it useful to insist that Thornley told only the truth.

More About Thornley's Beliefs

  In 1964, Thornley wrote a letter to his friend Adam Gorightly, where Thornley says he was a Marxist who was "...about ready to look up a friend in San Francisco who belonged to the Communist Party and ask him what I could do to speed up the revolution, when I picked up Atlas Shrugged [by Ayn Rand] as a good, long book to read at sea.  Well, by the time I set foot on U.S. soil again I knew i'd happened upon a genius.  It took me about two years to work out and adjust to my new philosophy, but I knew it'd be worth bit. it is."   (from  pp. 42-43 of The Prankster and the Conspiracy). 

    What were Th0rnley's earlier religious and political beliefs?  Thornley, well known for trying practically every drug known to man, was raised a Mormon. 
     In his introduction to his Discordian religion, Thornley writes: "When in 1968 I first declared myself a Saint, Gregory Hill said, "That's impossible," insisting, "Only dead people can be Saints," adding, "and fictional characters," guessing, "You are neither one."  But it happened that, although I was no longer a believer, I was still on the membership roles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints...Me and all the other Mormons were already Saints - and some of us living ones - no matter what he said.  Nowadays only the Mormons have more Saints than the Discordian Society. But we plan to catch up with them."

   Thornley's Lies About Lee Harvey Oswald

      We should look closely at those who insist that Thornley needs to be 'vindicated.'   Thornley's lies about Lee Oswald pervade Warren Commission defenders' books. For example, Norman Mailer (Oswald's Tale, New York, Random Books, 2007, p.357) said Thornley stated Oswald had rejected Christianity, saying, "the best religion is Communism." He obtained that remark from Thornley's testimony to the Warren Commission.
   Lee told those interrogating him after Kennedy was shot, "What religion am I?  I have no faith.  I suppose you mean, in the Bible.  I have read the Bible. It is fair reading, but not very interesting.  As a matter of fact, I am a student of philosophy and I don't consider the Bible as even a reasonable or intelligent philosophy. I don't think of it."  Since the police reported that Lee Oswald was a Communist and openly proud of it (which was a lie) they would also have mentioned that "the best religion is Communism" had Lee mentioned such a thing.  It would have proven what kind of evil man he was. But he didn't, so they didn't.

Thornley went on to tell the Warren Commission much more that he thought would please them:

Mr. THORNLEY. It became obvious to me after a while, in talking to him, that definitely he thought that communism was the best--that the Marxist morality was the most rational morality to follow that he knew of. And that communism was the best system in the world. 

WC E 25, VOl. XVI:  Lee Oswald, having experienced both systems, wrote a speech, from which I quote here (errors corrected):

    "We have lived into a dark generation of tension and fear. 
    But how many of you have tried to find out the truth behind the cold-war cliches?   I have lived under both systems; I have sought the answers, and although it would be very easy to dupe myself into believing one system is better than the other, I know they are not. 
    I despise the representatives of both systems: whether they be socialist or Christian democracies, whether they be labor or conservative, they are all products of the two systems." 

The chummy relationship between the Warren Commission's Jenner and Thornley is demonstrated here: 

MR. JENNER: We occasionally have been off the record, not often, and I have talked with you on the telephone. Is there anything that was said between us in the course of our telephone conversations or in any off-the-record discussions that you think is pertinent to the Commission's assignment of investigating the assassination of President Kennedy that I have failed to bring onto the record?
MR. THORNLEY: No, sir; I think we have very thoroughly covered it.

Anyone going through Kerry Thornley's Warren Commission testimony will find references to Lee as a communist, dressing in a slovenly manner with scuffed shoes, baiting his superior officers, and being over-emotional, with a 'smirk' on his face.  
   Thornley, who was only slightly taller than Lee, describes Lee as much shorter than himself.  He describes Lee at the proper weight, which would have meant that Lee was short and fat!  It's probably the strangest part of Kerry Thornley's testimony to the Warren Commission. Thornley's inability to correctly describe Lee even as to height is rather shocking: 

MR. THORNLEY:  Physically, I would say he was slightly below average height.  Had, as I recall, gray or blue eyes.  Always had, or almost always had a petulant expression on his face.  Pursed-up lip expression, either a frown or a smile, depending on the circumstances.  Was of average build, and his hair was brown, and tending to, like mine, tending to bald a little on each side.
MR. JENNER:  Above the temple.  What would you say he weighed?
MR. THORNLEY:  I would say he weighed about 140 pounds, maybe 130.
MR. JENNER:  How tall was he?
MR. THORNLEY:  I would say he was about five-five maybe.  I don't know.
MR. JENNER:  How tall are you?
MR. THORNLEY:  I am five-ten.
MR. JENNER:  Was he shorter than you?

Thornley could say absolutely nothing about Lee personally: he didn't even know Lee's father was dead, that Lee came from Texas, or if he had graduated from high school. Thornley never played a single game of chess with Lee. He never stepped into his living quarters. Thornley didn't even know that Lee liked classical music.

EXAMPLE: MR. THORNLEY:  Well, I don't recall us ever having a private serious discussion. 

Once, Jenner has to 'catch' Thornley from admitting that he had seen Lee Oswald as a civilian  (in other words, that Thornley had seen Lee in New Orleans). Here's where the 'catch' is made:

MR. JENNER:  What habits did he have with respect to his person -- was he neat, clean?
MR. THORNLEY:  Extremely sloppy.
MR. JENNER:  Extremely sloppy?
MR. THORNLEY:  He was. This I think might not have been true of him in civilian life.
MR. JENNER:  You don't know one way or the other?
MR. THORNLEY:  No; but I do have reason to believe that it wasn't true of him in civilian life.
MR. JENNER:  You don't know one way or the other?

(Jenner knows it would be disastrous to let it slip that Thornley had met Lee Oswald when they were both civilians.) 

MR. JENNER:  Did you think it went beyond that, this unkemptness or this sloppiness?
MR. THORNLEY:  It did go beyond that, because he seemed to be a person who would go out of his way to get into trouble, get some officer or staff sergeant mad at him.  He would make wise remarks.  He had a general bitter attitude toward the Corps.  He used to pull his hat down over his eyes so he wouldn't have to look at anything around him and go walking around very Beetle Bailey style.

A Brave Man Tells a Different Story About Lee Harvey Oswald (Compare to Kerry Thornley's version)

Lee's Group Leader, Nelson Delgado, said he was threatened with death for stating the truth about Lee Harvey Oswald. He was even shot in the shoulder. In this video, he tells us that he moved to England with his family because he feared he would be killed by the FBI.

( )
From Delgado's Testimony to the Warren Commission:
[CONTEXT: Delgado previously explained that both of them had supported Castro over the dictator, Batista, and that Lee Oswald wanted to help free the Cuban people.]
Mr. DELGADO -... He spoke Russian pretty good, so I understand. 
Mr. LIEBELER - How do you understand that? 
Mr. DELGADO - He tried to teach me some Russian. He would put out a whole phrase, you know. In return for my teaching him Spanish, he would try to teach me Russian. But it's a tongue twister. 
Mr. LIEBELER - You didn't have any understanding of the Russian language? 
Mr. DELGADO - No...You have to have a desire to use this language, you know, and I had no need to learn Russian. And just the reverse of him. He wanted to learn Spanish. He had some idea of using Spanish later on. I'm sure if this hadn't happened, he probably would be over there now, if he hadn't been already. 
Mr. LIEBELER - In Cuba, you mean? 
Mr. DELGADO - Yes. 
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you have any reason to believe that he has been in Cuba? 
Mr. DELGADO - Well, a guy like him would find--would have no difficulty in getting into Cuba. They would accept him real fast.

Delgado shows that he was an actual friend who wanted to see Lee Oswald again, when he makes this comment:

Mr. LIEBELER - You never met Oswald at any time while you were in Germany? 
Mr. DELGADO - No. I wanted to---I knew that he was over there going to school, and I can't for the life of me recall where I got the scoop that I thought he was going to some school in Berlin, and I was thinking of going over there, to see if I could find him, but I never did follow through. There was too much red tape. 

Here's more that's positive about Lee from Delgado, and it includes information I can agree with, about Lee's high intelligence (IQ tests back then did not take into account dyslexia, as they would today):

Mr. LIEBELER - Just how well do you think Oswald learned to speak Spanish during the time that he was associated with you in the Marine Corps? 
Mr. DELGADO - He could meet the average people from the streets and hold a conversation with them. He could make himself understood and be understood...
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you think Oswald was an intelligent person? 
Mr. DELGADO - Yes; I did. More intelligent than I am, and I have a 117, supposedly, IQ, and he could comprehend things faster and was interested in things that I wasn't interested in: politics, music, things like that, so much so like an intellectual. He didn't read poetry or anything like that, but as far as books and concert music and things like that, he was a great fan. 

Delgado also doesn't take the bait that Liebeler offers:

Mr. LIEBELER - This FBI agent says that you told him that Oswald became so proficient in Spanish that Oswald would discuss his ideas on socialism in Spanish. 
Mr. DELGADO - He would discuss his ideas, but not anything against our Government or--nothing Socialist, mind you. 

 While Delgado agreed that some officers thought little of Lee,  and some, such as an Officer Funk, picked on Lee habitually,  Delgado asks to go on record to correct a lie made by an officer to Life Magazine:

Mr. DELGADO - May I go on the record, because there was a statement I read in Life Magazine? 
Mr. LIEBELER - Go ahead. 
Mr. DELGADO - And it's erroneous. 
Mr. LIEBELER - What did it say? 
Mr. DELGADO - It is quoting a Lieutenant Cupenack, and he made a statement there in Life... saying he was Oswald's commanding officer, Oswald was on the football team... that is the only true fact in the whole statement that he made. Also that he [Lee] had a run-in with a captain that was on the football team, and because of this argument he went off the team... Lieutenant Cupenack was a supply officer. He seldom came in contact with Oswald. .. ... I just couldn't see why a big agency like Life would not check into the story and let something like this, you know, get out. I mean it's all well, you know, to go along and believe what the fellow did, but bring out the truth... And right now he is an instructor of philosophy or psychology in Columbia University, I think it is, something like that. 
Mr. LIEBELER - This lieutenant? 
Mr. DELGADO - Right. I just thought it funny, him saying that he was commanding officer over Oswald; that he had a lot of trouble with Oswald. ..a supply officer hardly ever comes in contact with the troops, and to say that a lieutenant is going to override a lieutenant colonel is ridiculous. 

Delgado noted that a hated officer--Funk-- and Lee Oswald didn't get along at all, and that Funk picked on him; in response, Lee would resist obeying him:

Mr. DELGADO - He [Lee] had nothing to do with him. Always tried to find fault. The man had a lot of faults. He was very sloppy. 
Mr. LIEBELER - Who? 
Mr. DELGADO - Funk. And he had a tendency to---he was very--very bad leader, in my opinion, because NCO's in the Marine Corps, you carry a sword, and we loved to see him carry a sword, because when you salute him, he brings the sword up to here (indicating) like this, and one of these days it's going to happen, because the blade would be swinging next to his ear, and we're all waiting for that thing to happen. That's what I remember about Funk. He wasn't there too long. 

Delgado describes Lee concerning anger management (There is no doubt that Lee was prone to gripe.  Delgado says "Oz" was obedient if asked to do something, but would argue if he was ordered to do it.  ):

Mr. DELGADO - ....he never got into arguments with me. He liked to talk politics with one fellow particularly, Call, and he would argue with him, and Oswald would get to a point where he would get utterly disgusted with the discussion and got out of the room. Whenever it got to the point where anger was going to show, he would stop cold and walk out and leave the conversation in the air. 
Mr. LIEBELER - He never got mad at anybody? 
Mr. DELGADO - Not physically mad, no. 
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever know him to get into a fight with anybody at Santa Ana? 
Mr. DELGADO - No. 

Compare this with what Kerry Thornley told the Warren Commission:

MR. THORNLEY:  ...he seemed to be a person who would go out of his way to get into trouble, get some officer or staff sergeant mad at him...  
 (later) MR. JENNER:  To what did you attribute this inability of his to maintain reasonably cordial or at least military-service family relations with his fellow marines?
MR. THORNLEY:  Well, at the time I just thought -- well, the man is a nut 

To the very end, regarding Delgado, Liebeler did his best to try to elicit support for a final "lone nut" and "crazy" statement from Delgado. After all, they had been successful in guiding Kerry Thornley into making such a statement.:

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever think that he was mentally unbalanced? 
Mr. DELGADO - He never got real mad where he'd show any ravings of any sort, you know. He controlled himself pretty good. 
Mr. LIEBELER - If you can't remember anything else about Oswald, I have no more questions

A Little about Kerry Thornley's Later Life

In 1965,
Thornley published another book titled Oswald, generally defending the "Oswald-as-lone-assassin" conclusion of the Warren Commission, which met with dismal sales. In his later years, Thornley became convinced that Oswald had in truth been a CIA asset whose purpose was to ferret out suspected Communist sympathizers serving in the Corps.

In January 1968, New Orleans district attorney Jim Garrison, certain there had been a New  Orleans-based conspiracy to assassinate John F. Kennedy, subpoenaed Thornley to appear before a grand jury once again, questioning him about his relationship with Oswald and his knowledge of other figures Garrison believed to be connected to the assassination. Garrison
charged Thornley with perjury after Thornley denied that he had been in contact with Oswald in any manner since 1959. The perjury charge was eventually dropped by Garrison's successor Harry Connick, Sr.

Thornley claimed that, during his initial two-year sojourn in New Orleans, he'd had numerous meetings with two mysterious middle-aged men named "Gary Kirstein" and "Slim Brooks". According to his account, they had detailed discussions on numerous subjects ranging from the mundane to the exotic, and bordering sometimes on bizarre. Among these was the subject of how one might assassinate President Kennedy, whose beliefs and policies the aspiring
novelist deeply disliked at the time.

Later, the former Marine came to believe that "Gary Kirstein" had in reality been senior CIA officer and future Watergate burglar E. Howard Hunt, and "Slim Brooks" to have been Jerry Milton Brooks, a member of the 1960s right-wing activist group, "The Minutemen". Guy Banister, another Minutemen member in New Orleans, had been accused by Garrison of involvement in
the assassination and was connected to Lee Harvey Oswald through the Fair Play for Cuba Committee leaflet. Thornley also claimed that "Kirstein" and Brooks had accurately predicted Richard M. Nixon's accession to the presidency six years before it happened, as well as  anticipating the rise of the 1960s counterculture and the subsequent emergence of Charles Manson and what became his cult following. This led Thornley to believe that the US
government had somehow been involved, directly or indirectly, in creating and/or supporting  these events, personages and phenomena.

In the wake of this period, Thornley came to believe (among many other things) that he had been a subject of the CIA's LSD experiments in the MK-ULTRA mind-control research program. While skeptics may dismiss as conspiracy theory some of his later notions – such as having been a product of occult-based Nazi Vril selective breeding programs – his claims regarding
participation in such highly-classified US government mind-control programs and foreknowledge of the John F. Kennedy assassination are consistent with the time period, his residences, and the nature and locations of his military service."

Spartacus tells us, under Thorney's biography,  that " 1992 Thornley appeared on a television programme, A Current Affair. He confessed that he had been part of a conspiracy to assassinate John F. Kennedy. However, he did not give the names of his fellow conspirators.
Kerry Wendell Thornley died in 1998. He had been working on a book with the journalist Sondra London. The book, Confession to Conspiracy to Assassinate JFK was published in 2000."

This is the man whose version of events in New Orleans is being depicted as truthful and reliable by several self-styled 'researchers' who want you to believe, so you will then discard the testimonies and statements of witnesses such as myself. (I'm taking risks to bring the truth to you.)

The next article will address the issue of whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald and Kerry Thornley met in New Orleans in May, 1963, and why it matters.

Sunday, 8 February 2015


(Note; an enhanced version of this damaged tape recording is being made. )
The first few minutes of this recording are hard to hear, because the recorder was damaged and it's all I had at the time, but it gets better after i removed the recording from my purse. The tape recorder was damaged while I was hospitalized after a so-called 'accident' where i was hit by a car----came back from the hospital to find my apartment vandalized. and many things damaged, including the tape recorder. However, it still worked--sort of!  

   Mary, concerned when she had not heard from me, invited me to visit her. I brought the tape recorder because the 'Mary Ferrell denounces Judyth' email had been circulating and I wanted Mary on tape to reply to that problem.

   Mary did not know that an email she sent to friends after becoming angry with me had been 'enhanced.' She was now sorry she'd ever sent it.  While standing at her bed, Mary said she had never denounced me and she gave me permission to tape her.  Mary had previously been angry because I had asked her about a fake name Mary had used when she was taking a college course in Ohio. She just exploded at me.  Later that night, she sent an angry email out saying she had washed her hands of me.
File at top shows Mary M. Ferrell is "now" 'Mrs. Mary Dean' with a new address in 
Hollansberg, Ohio instead of 1120 North McNeil, Memphis, Tenn. Mary was furious at me for bringing this to her attention, and when she discovered that her daughter, Carol An  had told me this was a fake name Mary had used, she was extremely upset with Carol Ann, who from that time on detested me for getting her in trouble. Mary later forgave me when I reminded her that I would never have asked Mary about it if I had intended anything malicious, and that I had intended originally to give her the files back, but after the email came out, now i had to keep them to prove what had started the whole thing.

The fake name was something Mary never wanted the public to know, for personal reasons. Now time had passed, and Mary had called, asking why I had not come to visit.  I told her she had hurt my feelings. Mary at once gave me her security gate code and called the nurse to make sure my name was still on the visitor's list, because her daughter, Carol Ann, had erased some names there.  We had no problem with the nurse, who found my name on the visitor's list, as well as the name of my sister and my friend Debbee.

   The email that Mary Ferrell sent out to several people turned out to have what Mary indicated was a falsified attachment.  This tape recording contains Mary's denial that she wrote the email in its present form or the attachment to the email.  After all, the email began with her expression of 'regret' that she was 'washing her hands' of me.   Mary said she didn't recognize the email in its present form (the next blog will show the contents of the email). 
     Later, after reading a transcript of the tape recording, Jim Marrs also visited Mary and she repeated what she told me, my sister and a friend.  She refused to be taped again, however, saying she was being pressured to stay away from me.  Later, Mary called me and said Robert Chapman, David Lifton, and Debra Conway wouldn't leave her alone unless she sent out another email confirming the so-called denunciation.  This she also refused to do.  By this time Mary was suffering from cancer that would soon kill her, and we never talked again.
     Carol Ann  would later claim that i must have found the files in the garbage --or took them when i was helping to move Mary to her assisted living apartment from her dangerously cluttered home on Holland in Dallas. Mary in fact had given me a tall stack of Life Magazines. I did not find the files until later--they were stuck between some of the copies.  Mary gave me other nice things, as well.  She gave me both her sons' Catholic Missals, because mine had been stolen.  She also gave me some of her dead son's art that I admired, such as these two cars:

     As for the falsified email, it has been circulated again recently as "evidence" -- with no mention of the tape recording's existence.         
      The persons who circulated the email were unaware that Jim Marrs, along with others, visited Mary after this recording was made and obtained the same answer from her.  Martin Shackelford , who testified before the ARRB, did tell a small group of researchers about Marrs' visit. 
      The foundation of the long attachment seems to have been composed of earlier emails Mary had told me about, where she had questioned various matters to discuss with Lifton and others.  However, Mary had already been satisfied with my replies.  She then endorsed me and my book by writing the note you can see below.
    That does not look like a 'denunciation'-- and the people sending around the falsified email do not mention the note, shown below, to recipients.
     I sent the original note to the publisher, but before doing so, of course made a copy for my records.  I later sent a copy to Dr. Howard Platzman for his records.  For some reason, making a copy of the note was supposed to be one of Mary's objections, in that long list of patched-together objections, which makes no sense.  Here is the copy:

      In fact, the email show questions Mary and I discussed --questions that had been answered one by one.  What Mary had sent out was apparently 'enhanced' by [pieces of these emails pasted together in a set of paragraphs called "judyth.doc."  Now, Mary had given me access to a file she called "Judyth.doc." That file had information about me that she had wanted to add to her Chronology.  She complained that Debra Conway refused to sell Mary's Chronology if that information was not removed.  This was information such as, when I met Lee, where i lived, that we worked together at Reily Coffee,  and so on. All of this information  had to be removed after a four-month standoff between Mary and Debra Conway.  "I want the money," Mary said. "I'm too old to argue with them."
    And so the information was removed.  However, Mary gave me a PERSONAL COPY of her chronology with the information still intact there.  Here is a photo of that disk:

        I saved a copy of the header that John Mcadams sent around ti 'prove' the authenticity of the email, but when it was pointed out that the header had some unsavory problems -- those who understand headers can see the problems with the TIME stamps --- the header was removed and a HAND_TYPED header was created by Dave Reitzes.  The header, which is not shown by those who have circulated the email, speaks volumes to those who can understand it in its entirety. Here it is: 
According to Mary, all she wrote was a simple sentence saying she regretted it, but the 'Judyth Baker' part of her life was over and everyone should understand.  Mary evidenced surprise when we showed her the printout.  She said she didn't write the attached material we showed her. Her email was sent to David Lifton, Robert Chapman, Debra Conway, John McAdams and one other.  Those who understand headers will note that all starts well: there is no problem, once you account for time zones, until you hit the timestamp of "12 Dec. 2001 10:59:02." While glitches could happen back then with timestamps. 11 hours behind the two previous PST stamps seems inexplicable.  If the email had been held up because it was being altered, an attempt to turn back the timestamp might have thrown it back too far and it could not be fixed. No email, by the way, can be proven to be authentic after such a long time period, but the header gives us a hint that it was not authentic.

    Jim Marrs, whose updated, new edition of Crossfire: the Plot that Killed Kennedy, came out in 2013 for the 50th anniversary of Kennedy's assassination,  went on in 2010 (and thenceforth) to endorse Me & Lee, writing its Afterword.   Edward T. Haslam, author of Dr. Mary's Monkey, wrote its Foreword.  Me & Lee was published in 2010 (hardcover) and 2011 (softcover). Me & Lee is also available as an audiobook from Trine Day publishers Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc.
Jim Marrs and Judyth Vary Baker
JFK Assassination Conference Dallas-Arlington,
22-23-24 November, 2014

STREET CAR TICKETS -- Me & Lee -- and Evidence that Marina Oswald was Threatened with Deportation

   The value of a street car ticket is that it shows a definitive date and time. When kept in the possession of a witness for over fifty years, it helps provide support that the witness was present at that date and time on that streetcar.  The streetcar tickets I saved from the St. Charles Streetcar in New Orleans in the spring and summer of 1963 are among many such unusual records and mementos I kept only between the dates of 1960 and 1963. By themselves they may seem to mean little, but in context with the other records which were also kept, plus documents, and access to the historical record concerning Lee Oswald, they provide support for my testimony, which is largely recorded in Me & Lee; How I came to know, love and lose Lee Harvey Oswald.
     In New Orleans, where we met April 26, 1963, Lee and I moved into our apartments within a week of each other: I on May 4, 1963,  and he on May 10, 1963. Lee arranged this for me after I was ejected after a police raid from a single room that turned out to be a "mansion of ill repute" on St. Charles. I now lived close to Lee's apartment at 4905 Magazine St., residing at 1032 Marengo St. 1032 Marengo was a mere six minute walk to the Napoleon Branch Library, the approximate halfway point, where Lee and I met most often.
       That spring and summer, Lee and I lived just one bus stop apart: most mornings in May through July, Lee got on the bus across the street from his 4905 Magazine St apartment.  The bus stopped next at Marengo and Magazine, and I would get on.
         Between May 9 and July 19 Lee and I also rode the Magazine bus home from work. Many times, we would actually travel past our apartments and get off down at Audubon Park at 6500 Magazine St.  Later, we'd take the bus returning toward town so that Lee got off first, then I did.  This bought us an extra hour or so, which we needed for the many afternoons when we were delayed getting home, at which time we'd get off at the regular stops but wouldn't seem to be arriving "late,"
     Lee usually got home by dark, but dark in the summer in New Orleans is not 6:00 PM.
  According to Marina, when questioned by the Secret Service and FBI, Lee never spent a night away from home except the night he spent in jail on August 9-10. This is not true, as we know from other records, but Marina tried as hard as she could to cooperate with what was wanted. While it is true that the Warren Commission told Marina that Marina was not in danger of deportation even if she refused to testify (WC Vol, p. 80), Marina brings up in her testimony to the Warren Commission that she had been previously told that her failure to cooperate could result in deportation:

MARINA: "... the agents of the Secret Service and the FBI, they asked me many questions.... Sometimes the FBI agents asked me questions which had no bearing or relationship, and if I didn't want to answer they told me that if I wanted to live in the country, I would have to help in this matter, even though  they were often irrelevant... that is the FBI"

 Therefore, we cannot trust everything Marina felt she had to tell the FBI and Secret Service, let alone the Warren Commission, which could only speak for itself. Nor did marina feel 'safe' testifying before the Warren Commission, despite their reassurances. We know that present at Marina's testimony to the Warren Commission were two interpreters: one was William D. Krimer, from the Department of State. The other was Leon I. Gopadze, whom Robert Oswald, Lee's brother, described as knowing that FBI agent James Hosty had harshly interrogated and threatened Marina with deportation in late November soon after Lee had been shot, if she did not cooperate.  It was now only January. 

Who was Leon I. Gopadze?
     Harold Weisberg tells us that as a translator of Russian, he was "Marina's shadow" who allowed the Warren Commission to question Marina under the pretense that she had not been under oath previously and therefore had sometimes lied to the FBI and the Secret Service, but now (with all the correct answers figured out for her) Marina was now going to tell everybody only the truth.  Weisberg's book, Whitewash, is worth a quiet read: you may end up infuriated with what he tells you.
    Gopadze was the Secret Service Agent who had allowed James Hosty of the FBI to interrogate Marina harshly and to twice threaten her with possible deportation if she did not cooperate. Robert Oswald stated that Marina had cooperated in every sense, and that he had even intervened due to the harshness of Hosty's interrogation. Now, Gopadze is sitting here before the Warren Commission as a "second" interpreter but he says nothing to support Marina. She must realize that he is not her friend.  Robert Oswald in his own testimony (WC Vol. 1, p. 410) tells us about the threats:

Mr. OSWALD. ...this particular one agent... she had an aversion to speaking to him because she was of the opinion that he had harassed Lee in his interviews, and my observation of this at this time, at this particular interview, was attempting to start-- I would say this was certainly so. His manner was very harsh sir. 
Mr. JENNER. Harsh towards Marina? 
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, Mr, it most certainly was. And by the tone of conversation by Marina to Mr. Gopadze, who was interpreting---- 
Mr. JENNER. In your presence? 
Mr. OSWALD. In my presence. And the tone of the reply between this gentleman and Mr. Gopadze, and back to Marina, it was quite evident there was a harshness there, and that Marina did not want to speak to the FBI at that time. And she was refusing to. And they were insisting, sir. And they implied in so many words, as I sat there--if I might state--with Secret Service Agent Gary Seals, of Mobile, Ala. ... we were perhaps just four or five feet away ... and it came to my ears that they were implying that if she did not cooperate with the FBI agent there, that this would perhaps--I say, again, I am implying--in so many words, that they would perhaps deport her from the United States and back to Russia.
I arose and called Mr. Mike Howard of the United States Secret Service into the back bathroom, and stated this to him. And I also stated that I realized there was some friction here between the United States Secret Service and the FBI to the extent that I was of the opinion that they did not want the FBI at that time to be aware of the tape recording that had been made of Marina N. Oswald, that she had been interviewed, in other words, by the United States Secret Service before the FBI arrived at the location. 
Mr. JENNER. You mean that the Secret Service did not want the FBI to know that they had taped an interview with Marina? 
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. 
Mr. JENNER. What was his response? 
Mr. OSWALD. He said, "Robert, I cannot tell you what to do."
I did ask him if he would go over there to speak to him, and kind of tone it down--if they were going to get anything out of her, they would not get it that way.  And he said he would speak to her. Approximately, at this time, the telephone rang, and he had to speak on the telephone.
I returned to my chair at the table where we were... opening mail, and again for the second time, the same implication was brought out. 
Mr. JENNER. By the FBI agents? 
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, air. 
Mr. JENNER. To Marina? 
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. 
Mr. JENNER. In your presence? 
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. 
Mr. JENNER. They spoke English? 
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. 
Mr. JENNER. Was the interpreter whom you named--was he participating? 
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was from the FBI agent [Hosty] Mr. Gopadze, to Mrs. Oswald, from Mrs. Oswald back to Mr. Gopadze to the other gentleman. 
Mr. JENNER. Proceed. 
Mr. OSWALD. On the second occurrence of this implication, of the same implication, I arose again, and Mr. Howard was walking across the room, and I stopped him, and I told him for the second time, or requested for the second time that he please say something to them about that. 
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak loudly enough to be overheard? 
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I just asked Mr. Howard to please inform the FBI that she had, to the contrary, been very cooperative from the time she had been out there, up until their arrival. And, again, I referred to Mr. Howard the reference there of perhaps the friction, or the condition that I assumed, that they did not want the FBI aware of the tape recording at this time.   And his reply to me, he said, "Robert, do what you want to do. You certainly absolutely are free to say anything you want to say." 
Mr. JENNER. And did you? 
Mr. OSWALD. I certainly did, sir. 
Mr. JENNER. What did you say? You went over to the agent? 
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I went over to Mr. Brown, the agent I knew, who was sitting at the end of the coffee table--it was a large round coffee table. And I sat there, and I spoke to him without saying so much about--anything about the tape recording. I did say to him--and I was shaking my finger at him, sir, I might say that-- that I resented the implications that they were passing on to Marina, because of her apparent uncooperative attitude. 
Mr. JENNER. Supposed, you mean? 
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.  And that I knew for a fact that she had been very cooperative and highly cooperative.  And I returned to my chair at the table. (Ref: WC Vol. 1 p 410) .

    So Marina was under stress to say what was wanted.
    As a witness, my heart goes out to Marina. I have also faced stress, including death threats, and know how ugly it can get.
    In my case, I saved what I could. The streetcar tickets were saved because they were very special to me, and because Lee and I planned to marry, I kept them as souvenirs about our love affair.  
     There were originally four ticket stubs, but I thought only two survived the vandalism, burglaries, and a 'removal' of files from a locker. The first streetcar ticket I saved was dated Sunday, April 28, two days after I met Lee. This one is still in a safe place.  At that time, I was already feeling strongly attracted to Lee, and Robert was in Florida; I wasn't married yet, and Lee had told me he was considering getting a divorce from his wife. As the ticket shows, Lee and I got on the street car between 8:45 and 9:00 AM.  We took part of our trip to Lee's aunt's home in Metairie by streetcar; then, we transferred to a bus. 
Below is what I thought was the only other surviving ticket of the original four, dated July 6, 1967. It shows a trip "to" or "from" an area that includes Tulane University, the logical destination or departure point, at no later than 3:30 PM.

    This streetcar ticket concerns hours I spent with Lee on this date. Originally, all I could find for this date was a single entry: "Washing and ironing today - also journals,"  The entry was apparently never updated.

    In my book, Me & Lee, even though I had the streetcar ticket, which was originally in the book's manuscript, the oversight was never corrected and the streetcar ticket was replaced with a photo of the interior of Tulane's library. In any new edition of the book, I'll ask that this bit of evidence (and others that were left out of the first edition, such as various references and sources) will be put back in. 

   First of all, this streetcar ticket was issued on a Saturday.  Under ordinary conditions, Lee would have been home with his family,  but as you can see elsewhere in Me & Lee, this was not always the case. Keep in mind that this is early in July.
      An indication as to how often Lee was not with Marina -- at least in July --- can be gathered from a Dec. 1, 1963 FBI statement (p. 2) where Jesuit scholar Robert Fitzpatrick was interviewed about his speaking to Marina Oswald on July 26, 1963, at the time she had accompanied Lee and his family to the Jesuit House of Studies, at Spring Hill College, in Mobile, Alabama.
   "[Fitzpatrick] stated Mrs. OSWALD said her husband was presently out of work and they were having a difficult time financially. He said she told him OSWALD is away from home a great deal and she did not know any of his associates or any of his activities."
      Marina's complaining to Fitzgerald about Lee's being "away from home a great deal"  and that "she did not know any of his associates or any of his activities" was ignored by the Warren Commission.

New Street Car Ticket Stub Found for July 6, 1963
    While going through science fair ribbons, which I haven’t looked at individually since 1961, I found one of the lost St. Charles streetcar tickets. It was for Saturday morning, July 6, 1963.  Lee and I had boarded the St. Charles streetcar at 8:45 AM that morning.  (I've enlarged it a little so it can be more easily read):

     I had scattered evidence of my being with Lee where I thought Robert would never look.  As for streetcar tickets, I only saved tickets involving me and Lee that were very special, so this means I was with Lee on a ‘special’ day.   Indeed it was, as this was a Saturday, which Lee usually spent with his family. However, he was free from work at Reily’s due to the 4th of July holiday on Thursday.  Lee spent the 4th with his family, so this must be why we felt we could have that Saturday together.    
     Since the first streetcar ticket is cut at 8:45 AM, we probably went to the Tulane Library. No doubt we ate lunch together somewhere.
  The second streetcar ticket shows we started the return trip at just before 3:30, meaning Lee was home no later than 4:00, in time for him to take Marina, as he usually did on Saturdays, to the branch library on Napoleon (now known as the Children's Resource Center). It takes 8 minutes to walk to the library, says Google Maps, from 4900 Magazine St.  Since there were no Russian books there for Marina to read, for her it was just a chance to look at a Life Magazine.  The library was open until 5:00.
     The FBI reported that on July 6, 1963, Lee borrowed One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn, and The Hornblower and The Hotspur, by C.S. Forester from the Napoleon Branch Library. (Both were renowned writers.)
     For July 13 in Me & Lee there was no entry. This was the weekend that Lee would have stayed home with Marina for sure, as it was right after her birthday. 


Information about Lee Harvey Oswald and my book, Me & Lee.

Nigel Turner

Nigel Turner
His business card shows a knight in armor on a charging warhorse....